User talk:Kunarian/Train Village Executive Order 2012
Keep in mind that Muza is a former neighborhood; it no longer exists. A bus stop (/station) there will not be necessary. Also, Hurbanova already has a harbor north of the town. --OuWTBsjrief-mich 07:01, May 2, 2012 (UTC) Thanks for that, not everything in Lovia is as clear cut as it would seem, by the way, after alterations taking the two above points into account what do you think of the plan? Kunarian 15:34, May 2, 2012 (UTC) :What's the goal of it? Making TV a transport hub is not a direct goal in itself. --OuWTBsjrief-mich 10:01, May 3, 2012 (UTC) ::#Lovia does not need high-speed rail but instead more public bus transport ::#What Train Village needs is not fancy stations but to be rebuilt after the deadly Siege during the Civil War; money would be better spend building up basic infrastructure atm. HORTON11: • 14:57, May 3, 2012 (UTC) @Oos: the goal is to adress the low levels of fast transport both interstate and in stater and the tiny amounts of proper harbours and ports despite Lovia being an island nation. Train Village happens to benefit greatly from such an upgrade because it is in a central point on the most developed island, the other mainly benefitted places are Hurbanova and Newhaven, the benefits in wealth in the form of jobs and increased visitors will give Train Village the help it needs to get back to its feet quickly. @Hor: 1. High speed rail would facilitate transport greatly and given proper support it would help the services industries all over Lovia by giving more logistics around which wealth can flow. Plus we support making both, both are nessesary to advance Lovia into the 21st century however just doing the bus stations everywhere just causes Train Village to be bypassed and will leave it in the same state at the begginning but with a bus station 2. But you miss the over all picture and fail to see the side effects of making the transport come from and to Train Village if you want to throw money at the problem. And besides what do you mean by basic infrastructure? Kunarian 15:42, May 3, 2012 (UTC) #For a nation as small as Lovia high-speed rail is not something necessary. The costs will be very high and for certain we will not be able to recoup them. Plus, with such low populatin we are not going to see much ridership. Honestly the present lines/trains are enough #Lovia is too spread out to have TV as the transportation hub, since it is out of the way for travel in Peace Island. That said, it could make for a regional hub for transport coming in from Hurb, NC and Charleston/Headland. #By basic infrastructure I meant fixing the hospitals, sotres and most necessary facilities, assuming there was serious damage. If you look at the map here it gives the scope of the destruction and the buildings in most need of repair would be the School, Police, Town Hall and Post office. Our money would be better spent on this than on expensive high-speed trains that we might not use a lot.HORTON11: • 16:10, May 3, 2012 (UTC) Again: 1. The costs would not be as high as I'm sure you imagine, they would not be close to your full on bus building plan and would easily facilitate the transport of goods as well as people. The present lines are far too many for the population anyway, a single fast rail with bus transport would suit Lovia far better, if size and population are the main concern. 2. Lovia is not spread out, it is small in size to a degree as you said, nothing compared to a nation like England which is huge yet has many central hubs in places for areas the same size as I imagine Lovia is. It would make a hub for Peace Island as a whole, it has central positioning and access areas already. 3. The place should recieve an aid package of course I agree but sustainable wealth will come from these plans. and again the high speed train is the future, much more efficient than the current train system, which is over complicated and fails to give central fast transport. Kunarian 16:33, May 3, 2012 (UTC) #Then why not just simply reduce the train lines. There is no need whatsoever for high speed trains (you know the Canadian conservatives said the same thing about low cost of F35 and the price is astronomically high). The thing is, I have no idea on what trains Lovia uses, so if they are too old it might be a good idea to replace them with something more modern and economical (don't think I don't like the comfort of fast rail, but it is realistically not viable for Lovia). #Lovia isn't big, but there are many small islands and within our little world it can be considered sread out. If you wanted a hub, it should be more between Hurbanova and NC, cause why would someone from Hurb go all the way up to TV just to go back down to NC. Like I said, TV works best as a regional hub. #If the plans are not sustainable, TV may not see much trickle-down wealth. So the government should be the one spearheading the rebuilding efforts, together with our armed forces (or disaster response) if we ever get one. But this should not discourage private initiatives in rebuilding too, I'm sure the businesses previously in the town would like to be present and active (some of them are linked to me too). #What we really need is an overhaul of the transportation system in the country, in order to cut back on costs (in order to offset the cost of high-speed rail). ##The Airport page lists SIX airports for Lovia (not counting the one in Novo), that makes under 5000 people per airport, which is ridiculous. We should reduce the number of airports and reduce the destinations of Air Lovia (a larger US airline can handle the international flights). ##Introduce ferries and boat service between islands. It is much cheaper than flying and we could buy hydrofoild which are faster (again we would need to look at the costs of this as I am not an expert) ##Perhaps introduce a coach service in place of some of the smaller/less used rail lines, cause operating a train isn't cheap unless you have enough passengers and track. HORTON11: • 17:53, May 3, 2012 (UTC) ##Aslo, we should form a public bus network in all the major Lovian cities (we could even get a tram system for Hurb, it would fit in with the historical side and they work very good). Perhaps we should also have taxis. HORTON11: • 18:28, May 3, 2012 (UTC) Okay: 1. That's part of the long term plan though, to reduce the system and see whether it is better to have one big long, efficient and fast line or whether it works out more to have several tiny lines that meander, economically and politcially the former is better but people may object to progress and the CNP will have to hear what they say. What I should have written is that the cost is worth it for the benefits that will come in the end and I think they are quite old in comparison to many lines around the world. And it is viable but it will be a long term viability not short term and in my opinion it is the job of government to prepare the country for the future. 2. TV will work well for now in developing a center for the two big southern islands, its as central as you will get with a settlement that can access Hurb, NC and Kings. 3. Of course but we will have to see, and these plans are the most feasable, if you wish I'll add a small relief package to the plan that will rebuild and then allow for proper reinvestment by the private industries. 4. 1. I can agree, we need one or two big airports for both trade and transport outwards, inwards is a bit ludicrous. 2. Thats part of the harbour plan, to ensure that boats can have a proper port and harbour, it could also open up a new larger fishing industry for Lovia. 3. yes, that was part of the plan, to replace the old train lines with efficient bus servicing and have the one fast rail being the jumping point between the islands. THIS IS IN REPLY TO YOURS BEFORE YOU MADE THE EDITS, WIKIA MESSED UP WITH THE EDITING :P Kunarian 18:49, May 3, 2012 (UTC) In reply to your public inner settlement bus idea, I'd have to think about it, but I think I'd agree to buses or trams. Kunarian 18:49, May 3, 2012 (UTC) I still think you're being too specific with this. We need to broaden the transportation reforms to most if not all of the country. #Firstly if you look at this railway map Train Village seems to be a sidestep to the major lines. It would make no sense to keep the rail line there. The alternatives are to either replace it with a coach service that could also be extended to Charleston. The other idea which I think is nice is to have an old-fashioned steam train line that takes tourists through the highlands, TV, the headland and past the plantations to Charleston. #Portland would make a much better alternative as a train hub, since it is near the Connection Bridge, and Newhaven is in a more central position (nationally) so it could be better suited. #A Maglev Train!?!? No way could Lovia afford that. We would have to be as rich and as populous as Shanghai to merit the use of having one. Even then, the Shanghai route is only 19 miles long and has only two stations. Plus those types of trains are mostly in test phases. If you look on the wikipedia Maglev page it says that the only other commercial line was a 600 meter route from Brimingham Airport to the train station, but "obsolescence problems with the electronic systems made it unreliable in its later years". I would love to have maglev trains, but they are too expensive (the fact that only one city has a functioning line proves it), not fully proven and not yet an economical long-term solution. And if we get a new rail line, I would like to see a joint public-private initiative along the lines of the SNCF. #Macadam roads are not an update, unless TV has even more basic roadways. I think we can afford to make asphalt roads for Train Village. #The bus system you proposed needs to be expanded to other cities. We should strive to make the bus system as local as possible (we would have coaches for intercity/state travel) and make it a public, city/town run system (the private sector is there to run taxis), though with sufficient regulation and legislation it could be transferred over to the private sphere. #The harbors: doesn't Old Harbor already have one, as the name implies. But it is imperative to renovate the existing ones if we want to introduce water-based transport. Perhaps we could include it to the Marinas like Sparrow and South Street, though it is not as important for now. ##You should include a clause(s) in s.5 of your proposal to allow fr the creation of passenger ferries or water transport. These should be state-regulated to comply with safety and other legislation but it is fair to allow private ownership/maintenance (after all, it is not in the government's interest to run everything). In essence, your plans needs a major overhaul and greater emphasis on the public/state's role over the private sector. HORTON11: • 20:30, May 3, 2012 (UTC) to assess the advice: 1. While it would be nice on a tourist basis I am thinking economically, maybe we should have two lines? one that is central for economic purposes and one that is around the nice places and all steam train and old fashioned. 2. Yes, but the fasted route across the nation is through train village and up to kings, we should make it clear that the economic line should benefit the economically lacking areas first, we cannot leave them behind and they need a way to deal with the larger settlements niche. 3. Good point, I just checked it out and its not what I was thinking, maybe I was thinking of the japanese super fast electric trains. The line as I said should be state owned and maintained and the trains should be run by a private company. 4. So the houses and buildings get destroyed but the roads are fine? the macadam roads replace the wrecks that would be there now and make it much more appealing as a transport hub. 5. the buses/coaches will be there to provide regular transport from the main line to all of peace island, I am open to tranport being public however I am still not convinced that it is a better service, please persaude me as to your ideas, in my opinion it is better privatised and we will actually sponsor more business and more competitiveness if we only provide the basics and then let private comapnies take over the rest. 6. Yes it will be renovated. And thats a good idea for the marinas actually, I think I'll look into that. and as for the regualtions mentioned, yes, we need to write out some regulations, as soon as this initiative is passed, we will have to write regulation laws for transport companies, however I want them to be loose, transport is very easily monopolised when under and over regulated. I'll make renovations to it tomorrow, however for now I'm going to rest a bit. Kunarian 20:56, May 3, 2012 (UTC) #The steam train would/could also serve economic purposes, if we made it with fine dining and amenities the people would surely pay more and it would bring in revenues to the region. #The major railways on Peace Island run through the south, so it only makes more sense to keep it there. Plus, why would we tear down the good lines there only to move them to the north. A mass-transport rail line is not very necessary for TV as it strays from the main roads, but like I said before it can be a local or intermediate hub serving Charleston and Clave Rock; buses would best serve that purspose, though there would be no need to rename the town 'Bus Village'. #Japanese bullet trains would still not be cost-effective. Those trains are pricey and very big, and in Lovia's case would be very empty (you should take into consideration that the cost of running trains all types are much higher in such a small and low-populated nation like Lovia). #About the roads, Macadam ones could work, but as a short-term solution. Roads like those are often dusty, and usually asphalt roads tend to attract more transport. But, if you wanted to maintain these roads, there could be a better plan for their use (see point 7). #Public transport has a ton of flaws, but I would rather trust a public system that is under the watchful eye of the state. Private companies would raise prices all the time and that would leave many people disgruntled. While inter-city transport should definately fall under the scope of the local government Coaches should be private run (the state has better things to look after than them). #Loose laws tend to favor private companies and they can take advantage of the measily, so I would like a comprehensive framework of laws and regulations to ensure companies don't screw over the customers and only then can it be in private hands. As for the monopolization, all companies should be allowed to participate in transit so perhaps a better solution would be a joint enterprise between the federal/state/local government and corporations, then you can get a bit of both sides' pros. #With the steam train and macadam roads in mind, perhaps we can remodel TV into a "living history" town. Set it in the 1920s with classic cars, speakeasies, jazz bars and such and you'd be sure to attract lots more tourism. The city should also exploit its natural surroundings and encourage nature tourism to regional natural monuments (after all the highlands have some of Lovia's highest peaks). HORTON11: • 21:20, May 3, 2012 (UTC) I will reply tomorrow, though I think we are making progress, all it takes is an attack ad to spark the government into movement it seems :L Kunarian 21:30, May 3, 2012 (UTC) OWTB's opinion I'm not going to read all the above. But I do want to stress that in the current form this is probably not going to work out. # High-speed rails are too expensive and useless. # There is a railway going from Train Village - Clave Rock - Northern Emerald Heights and one running from Overbanken (Hurbanova) - East Hills - Southern Emerald Heights (see Emerald Railway). Theoretically, it could be possible to connect these two railways (which would require building a new track from Clave Rock to East Hills, across the Emerald Heights) and connecting it to Hurbanova Railway Station (which would require relaying the tracks near the Hurbanova Stream, creating new tracks south of the stream, between Newport and Millstreet, and a bridge crossing the stream). Also, the Emerald Railway has to be renovated and turned into double-track. Estimated costs of the cheapest model (I happen to know because of plans for a new railway track near my home town): #*Approx. 80 km of double copper wiring: $400,000 #*Approx. 75 km of iron for the renovation to double-tracks (675 tons): $19,500,000 #*Approx. 300,000 railroad ties for the double-tracks: $6,800,000 #*Approx. 12,000,000 rivets: $3,900,000 #*Setting up a platform in Overbanken and East Hills for the railway halt: $300,000. #*Extra costs connection to Clave Rock (temp. no railway service): $500,000 #*Extra costs purchase of grounds: difficult to say, most is part of the National Park Service, let's say $2,500,000 #*Extra costs widening the tracks (which means blasting a few rocks): don't really know, I can imagine some $5,000,000 to $10,000,000 #*Extra costs side-tracks, switches: $4,000,000 #*Extra costs clearing the former tracks (70km+15km): $2,400,000. #*Labour costs: 2 years of work, let's say 2×40×40×200×15: at least $9,600,000, should take a reserve up to $15,000,000. #*Total costs: $60,300,000 to $75,000,000. #*In this case, we don't even have a connect to Hurbanova Railway Station. That would require a bridge crossing the river (let's add another $40,000,000 for that model). TV ain't gonna be a hub I guess :P # About the size of Lovia; we never calculated everything but we sort of agreed about the size of Oceana (46,795 meters by 52,816.5 meters). From this you could say the distance of a railroad from Hurb to NC would be about 50 km. One from Hurb to TV would be 70 km (you have to go through/around the Emeralds) and 180 km would be Hurb to Newhaven (roughly estimated, I can calculate it exactly if necessary). # Please, no trams. Buses and trains are more than enough. Also, I really hate driving through cities like Amsterdam because there are like a million trams :P # Horton has a point concerning TV not being central. Our capital NC is the most central settlement on Peace Island. Newhaven is the city with the best location and infrastructure for the other islands. Ideally, we could turn Charleston into a central hub as it's located on the northern side of the island and (if roads and railways leading to the town are improved) it could be a perfect hub between Peace Island and the other islands. It comes with a price: #*Approx. 70 km of double copper wiring: $350,000 #*Approx. 70 km of double tracks (1260 tons, in this case both tracks are absent): $36.400.000 #*Approx. 300,000 railroad ties for double tracks: $6,800,000 #*Approx. 12,000,000 rivets: $3,900,000 #*Building a railway halt in Charleston: $600,000 (a bit more professional of course :P) #*Extra costs connection to TV (temp. no railway service to TV and Clave Rock): $800,000 #*Extra costs purchase of grounds: let's say $4,000,000 #*Extra costs side-tracks, switches: $3,000,000 #*Extra costs clearing the area: perhaps some $1,000,000 #*Labour costs 1.5 years of work, let's say 1.5×40×40×170×15: at least $6,200,000, should take a reserve up to $10,000,000. #*Total costs: $68,850,000 to $82,000,000. #*In this case, Charleston is connected to the railroad system (instead of East Hills), making it the central hub of the entire country. TV will be the connection to three points (Clave Rock, Charleston, and NC). There is no expensive bridge necessary, making it a very well-functioning model which is $35,000,000 cheaper and actually adding some value to the system. But still, it is a damn big sum o'money man... #A highway from TV to Charleston would be: #*(6,900×70×1.8)+(0.6×40×20×30×15)+clearing+purchase=870,000+216,000+5,000,000=$6,100,000 to $10,000,000 # Our airports indeed need some fixing. We should just have one international airport and the others should all be local. Our destinations should be pinned down to the other wikinations, the US, and perhaps some other countries. --OuWTBsjrief-mich 09:51, May 4, 2012 (UTC) Oos, Charleston isn't really going to work for a land-based transport hub. Firstly it is much smaller than TV and at the tip of Stephen Headland is much further away to other settlements. Frankly Charleston could only work as a water transport hub. HORTON11: • 12:19, May 4, 2012 (UTC) :Horton, Peace Island already has a well-functioning hub (NC), Lovia in full does not. --OuWTBsjrief-mich 12:27, May 4, 2012 (UTC) :Do you really think that Charleston would make a good hub, cause its just a pinapple-making town in the middle of the wilderness. Like I mentioned before maybe Portland, Newhaven or even a new town in Eastern Peace Island or Kings alongside the Connector Bridge might/would be a better alternative, as it would be more in line with the transportation routes we have in place now. HORTON11: • 13:29, May 4, 2012 (UTC) ::Is the Connector Bridge also a railraod bridge? --OuWTBsjrief-mich 14:25, May 4, 2012 (UTC) ::Yes it is, I believe the Grand Trunk? Grand State?, well anyways a Grand something railroad goes on the bridge. HORTON11: • 16:38, May 4, 2012 (UTC) Horton, Charleston is more than a pineapple making town in the middle of the wilderness, it has a tourism, fishing, and non-pineapple agricultural industry. In fact, I don't think pineapples are the largest part of its food exports. —TimeMaster (talk • ) 17:05, May 4, 2012 (UTC) Yes it does have other ecoomic activities but the primary one was supposed to be agriculture and tourism atm is minimal. The fact that Charleston is all alone with very little land based links does not make it a good candidate as a transport hub. For water-based transport, it would make for a better hub because of its good positioning but that would require the establishment of a port, to start. The most cost-effective solution would be to use a town situated not too far from the ocean and which is connected to roads and existing railways. HORTON11: • 17:17, May 4, 2012 (UTC) I think it should be a water based hub, with a ferry network being based in the town. —TimeMaster (talk • ) 19:58, May 4, 2012 (UTC) Ferries will be good, and frankly necessary cause Lovia is a nation surrounded by water. Cause tbh it is unreasonable to take a 10 minute flight from NC to Newhaven and ultimately the costs are too high and outweigh the benefits. HORTON11: • 20:14, May 4, 2012 (UTC) :If we take into consideration Oos's distance calculations from Hurb to Newhaven, that would be approx. 180 km. If we took a small-medium sized plane like the Airbus A320 (which is a good size for Lovia) it goes at 511 mph. If traveling in a straight line that would be a trip of 13.133 minutes. A flight like this is quite unnecessary and costly. Replacing a few of the airports in the country increased water and road-based transport would be a much smarter solution. HORTON11: • 20:28, May 4, 2012 (UTC) Or we could increase the size of Lovia. —TimeMaster (talk • ) 21:36, May 4, 2012 (UTC) :Increasing the size is not possible. It will make all current maps useless. There are different "zoom in" maps based on the maps on the pages which have a size tied to the size of the big map. --OuWTBsjrief-mich 11:13, May 5, 2012 (UTC) ::I meant to make a pixel have more land (but keep the same shape of the islands), and since we only have one scale on a map (of Kings), it won't really do any harm. At least, it wouldn't "make all current maps useless". Not quite sure what you mean by "have a size tied to the size of the big map". —TimeMaster (talk • ) 12:42, May 5, 2012 (UTC) :::I mean that the size is calculated using pictures, f.e. RCC Saint Urban. For more information you can read this. --OuWTBsjrief-mich 12:47, May 5, 2012 (UTC)